Beginning of the end for suburban NRL stadiums?

[HoldenV8]

You know, I see it in just about every forum I read on this argument. Someone always points out the pathetic 16,000 crowd that Manly got for a semi final a couple of years ago at the SFS. What most people seem to like leaving out of this is that Manly were playing the Cowboys. North Queensland couldn't draw a straight line away from Townsville, let alone a crowd (especially in Sydney). The only time they'll get a decent crowd away from home is if they happen to play the Broncos in a top of the table match or a semi at Suncorp Stadium, or they happen to fluke another Grand Final appearance.

Its like the argument from the same game that the "Hand of Foran" try cost the Cowboys a win. Complete and utter BS. The fact is that it was evened out by North Qld getting away with a blatant 2 on 1 strip, and at the end of the resulting set of 6 they scored a try from a Jonathan Thurston pass that went at least a metre forward. But the Cowboys and their supporters don't seem to like the facts getting in the way of a good whinge so they ignore them.

As for the stadium vs suburban ground issue. How many stadiums do they need servicing western Sydney? They already have ANZ (not the best, but easily the biggest), Parramatta, Blacktown, Penrith and the Sydney Showground. Central and to a certain extent southern Sydney have the SFS. What do they have north or the harbour? Brookvale and North Sydney Oval which is not used in the NRL. Its one of the reasons why Manly are pushing for desperately needed upgrades to Brookvale Oval.

[Orel Puppington]

The reason the Centralizing of grounds worked in the AFL was all 12 clubs (except Geelong) until 1982 were all based in the Inner Suburbs of Melbourne. At the same time the then NSWRL had clubs in the inner suburbs too, but with some clubs in the outer suburbs and in one instance Penrith being based in far-western Sydney, some 60km away from the CBD. The NRL has been able to keep something that the AFL has not, the suburban charm to the game. But the AFL clubs were too big for their 15,000-30,000 capacity grounds and thus moved to the MCG or Docklands. And after WW2, Melbourne had a population boom with new fan-bases for clubs popping up in these new suburbs away from the traditional Inner-Melbourne boundaries. The NSWRL/ARL/SL/NRL had this too, but until 1985 not one club apart from the Roosters, who have always been based at Moore Park abandoned their suburban ground. Clubs have long been attached to their traditional suburban home grounds and so have the fans. But the biggest loser in all of this is Manly, who if they have to move full time to Sydney Football Stadium, will be financially ransacked as a result because Manly fans only travel to other grounds if they are playing in a Grand Final, and will likely get average attendances of 3,000. The Tigers made a mistake of moving their games last year from SFS to ANZ. On that I say SFS is a bit underused, because of the shocking roof and the fact the SCG just behind it has gotten more renovations than most other stadiums in the city since 2000. As a Dragons fan, I do not want to see us leave Kograh again (we won back in 2002 to play at Kograh remember?) but this looks inevitable, what the government is doing is killing rugby league in this city.

[Boba Fett]

The Tigers made a mistake of moving their games last year from SFS to ANZ.

Why do you say that? Their crowds are up over 20% this year.

[dibo]

There's nothing that forces clubs to move away from their suburban grounds, and if they can raise the money then they are free to upgrade them.

Frankly, I think it's sensible to stop clubs like the Dragons for asking for money to upgrade a ground they use six times a year. And I'm a Dragons fan!

[yob]

^^Poor example. It's common knowledge there's a bright red telephone in the prime minister's office for the Dragons. There's also an underground tunnel.

[dibo]

^^Poor example. It's common knowledge there's a bright red telephone in the prime minister's office for the Dragons. There's also an underground tunnel.

As is right and proper.

We are St George. The rest of you can get f***ed.

[DH]

A lot of fair points here on AFL v NRL crowds and why centralised stadiums in Sydney will be challenging for the NRL. Other aspects worth noting are:

1. The 1997 AFL crowd spike was also primarily due to the ARL-Super League season occurring at the same time as the Swans were returning from the 1996 AFL Grand Final.

2. Along with Sydney’s has transportation system divide surrounding almost all of their stadiums, there is a significant sporting cultural divide that Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide don’t encounter, which is that public and private school upbringings split most of the community to their league and union quarters if they enjoy contact football.

3. While I think the NRL’s goal of achieving average attendances of 20,000 is achievable, it will only happen if all of the following occurs:
a. Cronulla move to Perth

b. 18 teams are introduced with South Queensland Crushers and Central Coast Bears being the new teams.

c. Weekend football is restructured to the following:
* Friday Night - double headers only occur if New Zealand or Perth are playing home games, this will enable back-to-back live matches (delayed telecasts should not exist in the next TV rights deal)
* Saturday – three matches in the 4pm – 6pm – 8pm timeslots
* Sunday – four matches in the 2pm – 3pm – 4pm – 7pm timeslots (Channel 9 double header if one FNF match is played, fifth match at 12 or 9pm is played in this scenario as well)
* Monday Night – removed (option to play if one FNF match is played)

d. Regular season is reduced to 22 rounds (from 192 to 198 matches per season) with ‘big’ Sydney clubs and Qld clubs playing against each other twice per year ala AFL with Rich-Coll-Ess-Carl derbies in the 90’s. Ideally 3 groups of 6 which play each other twice being:
* Wests, Cant, Parra, Pen, Canb, StGI
* Man, New, CC, NZ, Syd, Souths
* Perth, Melb, Bris, GC, NQ, SQ

f. No NRL regular season matches played on State of Origin or Test weeks, replace with knockout challenge cup / international friendlies / qualifiers

g. All matches with two Sydney clubs are played in either Allianz, ANZ or upgraded Pirtek. Sydney clubs who host non-Sydney clubs can play in suburban / regional venues.

h. Continue handing out free / discounted / packaged tickets on ‘event’ weekends

That is the only blueprint I see for the NRL to achieve average attendances of 20,000 while also satisfying TV requirements. Hopefully they seal this deal in time for the next TV rights deal.

Ultimately, I think 20,000 is the ceiling for NRL for the foreseeable future, *Edited* and therefore, the NRL should not end their use of suburban venues as most of their matches are better placed in boutique 20k venues.

[yob]

Rationalisation primarily serves the big clubs. One club typically anchors the stadium on a sweet heart deal - for example Essendon at Docklands, and the pov clubs bang down the marginal costs of the venue by increasing the number of fixtures, and owning the losses.

20 year snapshot of the 4 povo Vic clubs

Footscray - home average 2013: 22132, 1993: 21085.
St Kilda - home average 2013: 28965, 1993: 28442
North Melbourne - home average 2013: 27406, 1993: 30202
Melbourne - home average 2013: 21816, 1993: 31137

There's simply no evidence of these beautiful benefits of rationalisation trickling down, touching the poor.

There is no need to move. Stay where your fans are, and improve your own grounds $1 million at a time. There's no opportunity cost of the beautiful bounty of sold out mega stadiums under roofs.

[dibo]

b. 18 teams are introduced with South Queensland Crushers and Central Coast Bears being the new teams.

The stadium in Gosford has 20k capacity, and will logically normally fall short of that, detracting from the league's ability to hit a 20k average across the board.

[yob]

b. 18 teams are introduced with South Queensland Crushers and Central Coast Bears being the new teams.

The stadium in Gosford has 20k capacity, and will logically normally fall short of that, detracting from the league's ability to hit a 20k average across the board.

This theoretical sold out Gosford only has a 6,000+ window for improvement over Cronulla averaging 14,000 (should the club be relocated/replaced). That's with Gosford firing on all cylinders.

What the hell is wrong with 16,000 average any way? What does that extra 4k get you? Bigger salaries for players and a longer drive for fans.

[Orel Puppington]

The Tigers made a mistake of moving their games last year from SFS to ANZ.

Why do you say that? Their crowds are up over 20% this year.

Bandwagon logic.

[Boba Fett]

The Tigers made a mistake of moving their games last year from SFS to ANZ.

Why do you say that? Their crowds are up over 20% this year.

Bandwagon logic.

Last year they finished 15th. This year they're coming 11th. What bandwagon are you talking about?

[the crow]

#tigersInDecline still

[Egan]

How financial are the councils around Liechardt, Manly, Kogarah, Penrith etc etc?

Economic stimulus on game days, any studies been initiated?

If fans and clubs of the NRL want to stay in their grounds they have to look at a new plea to government at a different level - local councils. I see a role for some councils to be the primary funder of development and top level stadium redevelopment. You have to get councillors and business owners seeing the value of hosting NRL games. It seems it's been accepted that state government will spend all the money and I expect some councils have large rates revenue and an ability to loan money to get upgrades to a certain level.

If Sydney NRL clubs want to stay regional they have to get smarter in how they bid and lobby.

[Boba Fett]

I expect some councils have large rates revenue and an ability to loan money to get upgrades to a certain level.

That's the funniest post yet.